Can we grace ourselves out of obedience? Religion and Spirituality?

Religion and Spirituality Some people think that salvation is based only on what we believe. I think most Christians believe that we are saved by grace but does that mean we can ignore obedience? Asked by autumnwind 1 day ago Similar questions: grace obedience Religion Spirituality Society > Religion & Spirituality.

Similar questions: grace obedience Religion Spirituality.

What happened to good deeds - making sacrifices for the good of our fellow man. That seems to have disappeared from the contemporary Christian message.

I don't think Mother Theresa thought she was "buying" her way through the pearly gates. There are many good people who are motived to share and help their fellow man. This was always a message firmly rooted in my own religious education - now it would mean sharing one's wealth (in one form or another) and that's not Relifion de rigueurThe messages of religions change with the politics of a culture.

Max, I truly believe that you think good deeds and making sacrifices has disappeared from the contemporary Christian message, but I just cannot understand how you could think that. It's the message I hear every time I go to church. Autumnwind 1 day ago .

It's not just what I hear, but what I see. I attend mass each week with my husband and also participate in the church I grew up in. At both churches, people take food to church to donate to the hungry.My husband and I sponsor a child in Honduras through the Catholic Church.

A visiting priest gave an appeal and they had forms in the entry way. People were crowded around the table trying to get the forms. The Methodist church takes in 5 homeless men each week.

They give them a warm place to sleep, cook dinner and breakfast for them, and send them off with a sack lunch. Autumnwind 1 day ago .

That's great. There are so many different Christian messages these days and one prevalent one is that since Jesus died for our sins already, there is absolutely nothing we need do other than read the scriptures and "take him into our hearts. " No need to help the poor, no need to feel any empathy - nothing but ritual.

And I hope they feed and tend to those homeless men, no strings attached. My experience has been they need to attend the service before they get their soup.

There is no service on Thursday night. Methodists don't tend to have strings attached to charity. James 2:14Faith and Deeds 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?

Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. ” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.19 You believe that there is one God. Good!

Even the demons believe that—and shudder.20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is uselessd? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”e and he was called God’s friend.

24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. My favorite is James 2:1919 You believe that there is one God.

Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. Autumnwind 1 day ago .

Too many people cherry pick scriptures to meet their political and cultural beliefs. Unfortunately scriptures include some wonderful and some truly evil stuff.

Mother Theresa continued her work even through her own long dark night of the soul. She was selfless for the sake of the needy. She was a humanist.

The beatification of Mother Teresa was conducted Oct. 19, 2003 by Pope John Paul II. (the official act of the pope whereby a deceased person is declared to be enjoying the happiness of heaven, and therefore a proper subject of religious honor and public cult in certain places.) Many believe Mother Teresa will be named a saint of the Catholic Church someday, and her beatification is the latest step in that path to sainthood. I do not believe she has been canonized.

Place in the canon of saints.

You are right. A second miracle is required for her to receive sainthood and they are still waiting for documentation of a second miracle. She was Catholic, not humanist.

I study the entire Bible and find nothing evil about it. The Bible includes stories about the Patriarchs, the judges, the kings, prophets, hymns (Psalms), biographies of Jesus, letters from Paul to various first century churches, etc. The Bible includes descriptions of ancient cultures. What parts of it do you find evil?

Have you found anything evil in the 4 Gospels? Autumnwind 1 day ago .

You can have a humanist personal philosophy and still be a Catholic.

I think you might be right about that, Lou. Perhaps they got it wrong when they were Catholics. "Well I got straight A's in religion, attended Catholic school from first through 12th, sang at 7am mass every weekday for years, was in processions and later discussions regarding Catholic doctrine.

I took multiple comparative religion courses and studied Medieval Philosophy of Religon as a required course and majored in Medieval history which means I studied a period when Europe was a Catholic theocracy. I think the problem is that, in reality, I know more about the theology and history of the Church than 98% of the Catholics alive today.

You have a point there. Max's comments are good but Christians know that you can't "buy" your way into salvation. Doing good for others is a good thing but not a tab to be paid to enter the pearl gates.

Grace is vastly overlooked.

Lou Lou, I agree with you and Max that you can't buy salvation and that Mother Teresa wasn't even trying to do that. James says, "Live out your faith or it's not your faith. " He says that it is not what you say buy what you do, what you live.

When I was in grade school, we used to sing songs while playing on the Ocean Wave. The Baptist children used to sing one that goes, "Be ye doers of the word. " autumnwind 1 day ago .

I don't think Mother Theresa was buying her way throught the pearly gates either. I think she did what she did out of love for her fellow man but even she knew her salvation was by Grace alone not deeds.

I agree with you about Saint Theresa. (I forget that she's now a saint. ) Someone here recently said that Catholics don't believe in grace, but that's not true.

When I opened my bulletin at mass Sat. Night, the first word saw was grace. The sadducees and Pharisees were such legalists.

I think the concept of grace is needed to keep us from becoming legalists. Also, I don't think it would please God for us to just try to appease m with good deeds just so we would get a reward. At the same time, I agree with James that faith without deeds is dead.

I think the sacraments and the liturgy help to keep us in a good relationship with God. For instance, "Through my own fault, I have sinned in what I have done and what I have failed to do. " (They've changed it a little to really emphasize 'my fault.' I don't have the changes memorized.

) Anyway, I think it all works together......the sacraments, deeds, grace. I don't think we get salvation by deeds alone nor do I think we get it simply by believing the right thing.As James points out, even Satan and his demons believe there is one God and that Jesus is s Son and died for our sins. I think God requires obedience, but He doesn't require us to be perfect, just to try.

Autumnwind 1 day ago .

There are a lot of people here who know so little about the Catholic Religion but think they know it all. Some of the worst I find are ex-Catholics.

I think you might be right about that, Lou. Perhaps they got it wrong when they were Catholics. Autumnwind 1 day ago .

Grace and good intentions will often pay the rent when obedience is lacking. How well do I know this. My God is a very forgiving and loving God, btw;) .

I totally agree about God being very forgiving. Do you think He wants us to at least try to be obedient? Autumnwind 1 day ago .

I think that like any parent God is happy when we stay out of trouble and realize the importance of spiritual values. It's not the act of being obedient as much as the understanding of why good action and good thought are for the highest good not only for ourselves but for everyone. Oneness and interconnectivity are being scientifically proven more and more, wouldn't you agree?

I still have far to go so don't think I'm preaching;) .

Oh, I don't think you're preaching at all. I like this discussion. I'm currently doing a study on the Book of James through a Beth Moore study guide.

She made the comment, "you can't grace yourself out of obedience. " I thought that was an interesting concept so I thought I would throw it up for discussion. The Book of James is quite different from the Gospel according to John.

I like John much better but it's nice to get James' perspective, too. Autumnwind 14 hours ago .

We are saved not by what we know but by whom we know. God already has all things and knows all things. To answer your question, ask yourself "What does God want that He doesn't already have?"

You. He wants a relationship with you. "Grace" is God's mercy and forgiveness for our open rebellion and treason, in favor of getting, having, and securing that relationship with us.

But in that relationship, Jesus says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). Can you ignore obedience? Sure; most human beings do .. .

While they're ignoring their own Creator. But that only means they have no relationship with Do you want a relationship with your Creator? The joy of Jesus Christ's gospel is that He has fulfilled all REQUIREMENTS of the law.

We no more do to be in God's will but begin in God's will and from there, we do. We do out of love for God--if it isn't love for God, we don't do it. I believe God loves me.

From that belief, I decide to love God in return.

I agree with you about God wanting a relationship with us. I tend to think that He would find a relationship that does not include obedience to be somewhat lacking. Autumnwind 1 day ago .

Which is exactly why Jesus says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). If one is disobeying God, one is really not looking for any kind of relationship with .

My canned answer to that is that if you are sorry for your sins, God forgives you; but if you keep on sinning, God gets the idea you're not really sorry.

That's a very good answer and I think it's a concept that has been reflected in much literature including Hamlet and The Scarlet Letter. If you're really sorry, you don't keep doing it. Of course, there's human weakness.

We all have experienced having good intentions when starting a diet only to give in to tempting foods. Autumnwind 1 day ago .

It is by grace...but trust and obey...believe in Jesus' dying to save us...obey means to do greatest commandment to love God/self/others. If you reject Jesus...you reject God who was one and the same. Jesus is our model.

WWJD? .

Unless you do God’s will and not your own…God will say I never knew you! .

If you don't have the Holy Spirit in you...you are not full of God...but full of ego/self. The Holy spirit helps when you are tempted. By our own power...we sin...can't please God.

Very well stated, Shasha. I love that hymn, Trust and obey. Good point about being filled with the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit will tend to make you want to do God's will. Autumnwind 1 day ago .

If you're sufficiently Obsequious you can convince yourself you can. Remember, obsequiousness is the primary characteristic of the natural born follower type personality, that and intellectual laziness.

Religion" "Your 'Change category' does not work. You put my 'computer' question into 'Religion & Spirituality. '" "what are the differences between science and spirituality" "Does Spirituality provide more understanding than Religions?" "Is religion for everyone?

" "what do you think of this religion? " (10 answers) "Why are you what ever religion you are?" "I am taking a poll on this question, "What is the difference between spirituality and religion? "" (10 answers) "Has the economic downturn and the constant negativism been weakening your spirituality?

There seems to be no peace" "What are the componets of religion?

Your 'Change category' does not work. You put my 'computer' question into 'Religion & Spirituality.

What are the differences between science and spirituality.

I cant really gove you an answer,but what I can give you is a way to a solution, that is you have to find the anglde that you relate to or peaks your interest. A good paper is one that people get drawn into because it reaches them ln some way.As for me WW11 to me, I think of the holocaust and the effect it had on the survivors, their families and those who stood by and did nothing until it was too late.