Does anyone know when people stop referring 2 kids ages by months? Just herd someone say "she's 22 mo. old" why not say, "she's almost 2"?

I cannot explain why it's disturbing, but nursing after the kid can talk freaks me out. In Africa, where there is no clean water, sure it makes sense, but here? It seems like an abnormal attachment between mother and child.

Why does the mother need to do it? Why can't having a nice cuddle and reading a book be enough? What does the kid get out of it?

Is it the equivalent to thumb-sucking, which we discourage? I seriously don't get it. Rather than ask us what's wrong with you, explain why you do it.

If you don't feel you need to explain yourself, ask why you get so defensive when anyone questions what is an abnormal behavior. And yes, it's out of the norm to BF a 6 year old. Why, as a parent, would you want to encourage this dependency?

A 2.5-year-old kid should be learning self-soothing skills by this point. It's easy to say that you BF your toddler on a plane in order to sooth him and keep him quiet. But, if you'd weaned him earlier and begun teaching other ways of becoming calm, it wouldn't be necessary.

I wish my toddler weren't so dependent on me. I mean, she's almost 2 whole years old. What's she clinging to mommy for in unfamiliar situations?

What a wuss. Toughen up, kiddo! When baby boy was 3, he was going under potty training at the same time my wife began weening him.

Naturally, we used the social reward of calling him a "Big Boy" whenever he went to the bathroom without being reminded. At the same time, he would go over and lift up his mother's shirt for a little snack, and my wife would say, "No, no. You're a big boy now.

Yeah, kid, I feel for you. You're the sort of preachy idiot who opens your mouth without thinking anything through. The poster you're referring to said quite clearly that she had several reasons for making her decision.

So, she obviously thought it through. It's unlikely that she said to the docs, "Well, I've decided not to breastfeed" without explaining some of those reasons. Based on what she said to her docs, they supported her decision.

That's hardly a scenario of incompetence. And this woman is hardly the capricious person you make her out to be. Keep your opinions and judgments about OTHER people's decisions to yourself!

"No, it's not like that at all. I wasn't talking about the participants' needs (either mom-and-baby or kissing couple). I was pointing out that both situations, because they involve a level of intimacy (not necessarily sexual), can make people uncomfortable in the same way.

"It's easy to say that you BF your toddler on a plane in order to sooth him and keep him quiet. Except when all those other ways don't work. And, of course, if you can't get your kid to shut up instantly, then you're the bad parent who is inconveniencing everyone else on the plane (have you read some of the prior entries here about airline travel with kids?

WAY nastier than anything that has been said here about breastfeeding). We had one hell flight when my daughter was 3 -- I had long since stopped breastfeeding, and yet I was sorely tempted to whip it out just to see if it would shut her up, since nothing else would! Come on, guys, this is total damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Any time a 2-yr-old acts like a 2-yr-old, there's always someone who's happy to tell you how you've failed as a mother, because if you'd only done X, or foreseen Y, you could have prevented or solved the situation. Usually, of course, from someone who doesn't have kids, or who got one of those lovely calm mellow sweet babies who never makes any fuss, which she attributes to her phenomenal parenting skills (my mom was like this when she had me; it's been something of a humbling experience for her to learn how to manage my daughter -- "you mean all 6-month-olds don't play with board books for 45 minutes?"). The fact is, when you're a mom, everything you or your kids do is going to piss someone off at some time or another.

Personally, when I'm in an enclosed, confined space for many hours (like a plane), I tend to focus my efforts on trying to annoy the fewest people for the shortest time possible. So, yeah, if it came down to pissing off the entire plane with a shrieking child, vs. offending one person with a flash of boob, then I'd happily choose the latter, and worry about whether I was emotionally scarring my child for life later. I would love to see this person try to handle a frustrated toddler in a grocery store or something.

"Now, son, a tantrum is not necessary. That would probably work, right? For the poster who asked why some of us aren't planning on trying BF: for me, I just plain old vanilla don't want to.

1) I am sensitive in the chest area and don't want it to be irritated. 2) I don't want to have sole responsibility for feeding the baby (formula can be made and given by other family members). 3) I will be having a c-section as well, and I am expecting a long, hard recovery process - basically, I don't want to divert my body's resources.

4) As a science student, it has interested me to read firsthand a lot of the oft-quoted breastfeeding studies, and many of them are not worth the paper they are printed on, scientifically speaking. Basically, many of them prove a *correlation* but not *causality* between breastfeeding and better health, and they do not bother to control for variables such as socioeconomic factors etc. My favorite example of this is a study purporting to prove that formula causes more gastrointestinal illness --- it does not even adjust for the water quality in the mixed formula being used (um, duh, well water is probably gonna make your baby sick ... would be nice to have stuff like that accounted for in a study). I thought one of the big goals was to raise independent kids.

Why is it so wrong to want your kid to settle herself? Obviously, at 2, expectations are according to her tender age. But why shouldn't she be able to go to sleep without the breast, for instance?

I was told never to nurse your baby to sleep because in the middle of the night she'll 1. Freak out because their sense of continuity isn't yet established and 2. Never learn to go to sleep alone.

It's not about "toughening" your kids up. It's about making life easier for baby AND mom and dad. You won't be loved or needed less just because your kid learns independence, and that's the only reason I could imagine someone would have a problem with fostering independence.

If a mother is breastfeeding her two-year-old, at least the child isn't throwing it's Cheerios at me. I don't have a problem with women nursing in public -- most are discrete about it. I have a problem with the attitude of the militant mommy lobby -- the types of women who want front-row parking, expect restaurants to have wheat-free entrees for their allergic little ones, and whack you with their strollers and don't apologize -- all because they have a higher calling -- parenthood.

This sense of entitlement is what is wrong -- not right -- with the world. The militant mommies can make a big deal about the right to breastfeed in public and put on a good show, but they shouldn't be surprised or offended when people react accordingly. My mom claims that she would just put me down in the crib, walk away, and I'd go to sleep without a fuss every time.

That made me crazy, since I've been blessed with a non-sleeper! I think it must be selective memory at work. Sorry for the double-post.

My son is 2.5 and I am no longer breast feeding him. When he is having a melt down we do use alternate methods. We have been teaching him a deep breathing exercise and to redirect his attention and it works more often than not.

I also used to use this when I was a nanny prior to going to school. Works pretty good. So, there are other ways that with patience (on my part) that do work.

As I read the posts on the kids who still BF at 7 or older, I had to wonder if it wasn't a matter of "control" on the part of the mother. The control factor doesn't have to be conscious to be there. My gut feeling is, God help those kids at 20-30; when somebodyelse is in line to take Mom's place.

But, I'm not a scientist or psychologist. As the breastfeeding mother of a six-and-a-half month old who just flew last weekend, I thought I'd pitch in. I fed my son at takeoff on each leg of each trip -- that's four flights total -- and we received tons of compliments on how quiet and well-behaved he was.

I honestly try to cover up as much as I can, out of my own modesty and a wish not to draw stares, but these days my once docile breastfeeder can be awfully squirmy and noisy until he gets settled down, so there's an occasional "flash" before I can get him latched on. I already find it embarrassing enough without being chastised about it -- not because I'm ashamed to breastfeed him, but in the same way I'm sure I'll be embarassed if (when) he starts yelling and throwing food on the floor in public. In our case, a blanket would just make it worse, especially since it was awfully hot on at least one of our flights before takeoff.

For the person who asked why parents don't just use a bottle on an already stressful day, I wanted to say that in our case, at least, that would have increased the stress. First, I would have had to make time to pump enough in an already busy day. Then, with all the security rules, I don't know how to keep it cold -- although carrying milk is OK, the gel ice we use isn't.

And when it comes down to it, this baby -- like many who mostly get the breast -- just doesn't like the bottle that much. Though he takes it at daycare, he'll usually refuse it when I'm around or fuss at it even in the best situation. Since a day of travel is even more stressful for him than it is for us, it just doesn't make sense not to use the breast -- easy, convenient, and no problem at the X-ray machine -- to give him the food and comfort that he needs.

You won't be loved or needed less just because your kid learns independence, and that's the only reason I could imagine someone would have a problem with fostering independence. It's kind of harsh to be dumping on a child for not being "independent enough" at age 2, isn't it? I don't think most people here are talking about breastfeeding until age 7 or anything -- that's the exception to the norm.

I seriously doubt that allowing my daughter to nurse from time to time at age 2 meets the definition of a "problem with fostering independence." Would you say the same if this was about her dependence on her blankie instead of her mommy? I don't think there's going to be a slew of postings about how allowing a child to have a security blankie is refusing to foster their independence!

It's the *breastfeeding* that sets you off, isn't it. Don't have time to get all into the debate, but I was scanning and saw this from Proud Papa and thought I'd chime in. My 2 year old is still nursing.

I generally try not to nurse him in public anymore, as it's more difficult to be discreet with an active toddler and it does seem more awkward generally. Every now and then I do, however (most recently to avoid a total meltdown at an airport). So, I thought I'd chime in and say it sounds like you handled the situation fine.

My advice would be to just continue talking as you were, or if you're not comfortable looking at them while they're nursing and are concerned about appearing rude when you look away, to just say something like, "Pardon my looking away, I just don't want to be intrusive while you're nursing." If that offends her, she's probably lacking in social graces anyway so why sweat it. Laura, your 4:32 post was right on!

I'm just shocked she was on a plane that still carries blankets. Just cover up! That's all anyone's asking.

Secondly, it's rude to tell others to just "look away" if it offends them. We all have to make concessions to each other in one way or another and it's in the best interest of everyone to take others' feelings into consideration. For example, I'm sure most of you wouldn't care to see two teenagers REALLY going at it at the local park while your kids are playing.

They have every right to be doing what they're doing (provided clothes stay *mostly* on), but it's inconsiderate to you and is going to prompt some questions for the kids. In short, the teens should have found a better place to make out (or, heck, covered themselves with a blanket to stick with today's discussion). Couldn't have said it any better.

Cover up and get over it. No one says you have a right to fly with your child, so don't impose your choices on the flying public. You've very aptly described my experience with my not quite 3 year old son last spring break when we flew from Baltimore to San Antonio.

He was fine when we were on the plane waiting to take off but as soon as the plane started rolling, he panicked. He started to scream "Help Mommy! Help me!" "Mommy, HELP!" "Help Help Mommy!" pretty hysterically.

The choice was between nursing the pre-schooler and "embarrassing" some hypothetical sensitive passenger or subjecting EVERYONE to this screaming. I chose nursing my son with peace and quiet reigning in the airplane cabin. As far as I could tell, no one was so embarrassed or offended to make any comment or complaint.

Do I still comfort nurse my son (turned 3 in June)? Even in public? Do most people even clue in to what's happening?

People become embarrassed only when they find out (e.g. , I tell them when they ask why I'm sitting down, what is my son doing, etc.). It seems people are disturbed by the *thought* of nursing in public although they didn't know it when they did see it. To "To Laura" @ 4:38 -- ain't selective memory fun?

My dad recently asked me how I managed to be such a great kid, did my schoolwork, never caused problems, etc., when both of my (much) younger brothers were just constant trouble. I burst out laughing -- don't know how he managed to forget our knock-down, drag-out fights! Guess I should be happy about which parts of my childhood he's chosen to remember, though.

To Cover up! I'm a bit baffled at the statement that "no one says you have a right to fly with your child". Actually, I do have a right to purchase airline seats, and fly along with, any one I choose, with the obvious exclusion of persons who are terrorists.

So, duh, I have a right to fly with my child as long as I behave in accordance with whatever terms and conditions are on the back of the ticket I purchased. Within reasonable limits, all of the flying public has to get along and make the choices that impose the least amount on other members of the flying public. I wish the drunks and those who've eaten a tremendous amount of flatulence-producing foods didn't have a right to fly, but alas, they do.

Studentmom2be - I respect your decision to ff, it is a personal decision. That said, I disagree with your dismissal of the recommendations of the WHO and AAP, and the fact that breastmilk is made by humans for humans and has exactly what babies need. "And I repeat, being their mother ABSOLUTELY makes me the ultimate expert in these children.

As their parent, of course you know more about your children's personalities, emotions an bodies than anyone. I never said you didn't or that I knew more about them than you did. I've never met you so how could I know a single thing about your kids?

In my previous comments I was making a point that parents of toddlers should not rely solely on breast-feeding to comfort for their children. They should begin to teach them ways to express their feelings, comfort them about talking to them, helping them label their emotions, and express them in any way they can. As a parent they should start to help their kid find ways of coping with stressful situations.

I think that relying on breastfeeding whenever a kid is upset/scared/anxious really robs them of an opportunities to develop their social emotional development and coping skills that all children should have. Not ridiculous at all. Do you think because you read something about baby sleep in your textbook that you have the answer for all babies?

No one understands the meaning of a baby's cry like the baby's mother (and father) do. I grew up watching other mammals continue to nurse their older off spring so the whole age limit thing is interesting. I saw cats, dogs, cows & horses all continue to nurse their no longer newborn offspring.

I guess along with not having opposable thumbs those other mammals didn't realize the damage they were doing to their young by allowing them to continue to nurse. Thank goodness we are just so much smarter than other mammals & recognize that breast feeding older children is "gross" & is somehow "damaging to their sense of independence" and interfers with their ability to "calm themselves". I could always pick out the horses that continued to nurse even when they were older from the other horses that weaned.

There was something different about them. "I was making a point that parents of toddlers should not rely solely on breast-feeding to comfort for their children. I'm not sure which grad student made this comment, but I'd like to point out that the fact that a mother is nursing a toddler doesn't mean that she isn't doing all of the things you suggested.

Nursing is ONE way I comfort my 2 year old, not the only way. However, at critical breakdown moments, it is usually by far the most effective. So the fact that so many people have posted about nursing while traveling is neither surprising nor an indication that they don't have any other coping methods - as Laura noted, traveling with a toddler is very stressful and there is a lot of pressure to get the child to shut up quickly.

I'm sure there's some sports or military analogy that would be helpful here, I just don't know enough to come up with it. I guess the question becomes as the plane is taking off & in the seat behind you a 2 year old starts screaming with pain because his/her ears hurt it is ok with you if the mom takes a few minutes to find some other toy to calm their child before they start nursing? Breast feeding can be hugely benficial, to mothers and children who can do it; no arguement there.

I think there's more to this incident than being addressed above, in the whole interaction. The plane is small, two adults (mom and dad) and one child packed into two seats. I looked at the seating charts - for their location, next to last row, there's only two seats.

So did the flight attendant seesa kid who darn well needs his/her own seat for safety and is way larger than an infant? I think that might set up a conflict. Next, is breast feeding a two year old on demand just to calm them a great idea?

Screaming kid maybe? If I saw a two year old being picked up and nursed to stop their noise, and them riding on a car/plane/train/bus on a parent's lap vs. a child seat, that would bug me. So is the real issue here breast feeding, or a total situation?

I've never personally seen anyone get harassed for breast feeding an infant, and if that happens, yes it's a wrong. TO A European: I guess that explains why you let fat ugly men were speedo bathing suits there. "As the studies increasingly show the benefits of breastfeeding, people will too accept breastfeeding in their homes and in the public.

Ah, but you ignore the trifecta of studies that came out this fall. #1 showed that there was no correlation between BF and lower obesity rates. #2 showed that there was no correlation between BF and higher IQ.

#3 (my PERSONAL favorite) was a 20-year Swedish study that showed that extended BF (past 5 months) correlated with a HIGHER rate of adult-onset allergies. Ah, the irony, the irony, the sweet irony lol! "I cannot explain why it's disturbing, but nursing after the kid can talk freaks me out...Why does the mother need to do it?

Why can't having a nice cuddle and reading a book be enough? What does the kid get out of it? First, apologies for all the posts at once.

Finally hit a slow spot in the day. Amanda, I actually totally understand where you are coming from. When I was preggers, I saw a woman nursing her two year old and talking to him about it and I found it very weird also.

But here I am. I don't think any mothers "need it", most of us continue because our children want to continue and we can see how much it means to them. It is soothing in the way that thumb-sucking is (and actually, I thought the current trend was to not worry about thumbsucking, and anyway BFing doesn't raise the same orthodontic concerns), it is a very powerful way of bonding with mom, for my son it also seems to be a way to decompress and relax.

At this age, he pretty much wants to nurse when we've been separated for a long period of time, when he's exceptionally tired, and at bedtime. I will miss the closeness of breastfeeding, but I would be happy at this point to have him wean and have been pushing him a bit in that direction. However, in the last few days he's been mounting a campaign of resistance, so we shall see, I may let him go a little longer.

How do you define decency? How much should a nursing mother cover up without inhibiting her from effectively feeding her child? All questions that can't be easily answered.

Because there is no consensus, it is a question of whether to allow breastfeeding in public or not. As long as its an act that is beneficial to the child, which it has been proven, then one cannot exclude the mother from breastfeeding her child. It is no longer a question of entitlement but one of maternal necessity.

Total situation: I think you just hit the nail on the head. I only wish you had been the second poster today...rather than having to sift through all this other stuff. Lots of trolls today.

Maybe we'll have a topic more related to "on balance" tomorrow. What I'm dismissing is the bad science behind the studies they are citing. Show me some good science with actual proven causality and actual controls used, and I will change my opinion.

Funny you say it has exactly what babies need: it MIGHT, but a quantatitive study to determine the composition of human breastmilk has never been done. So you don't know that it's "just what babies need" for sure - Darwin showed that ill-adapted species die, not that well-adapted species are perfect-in-every-way ... cabiche? StudentMom2Be, you are like the tobacco companies clinging to the one or two scientists who supported their view that tobacco doesn't cause cancer when every other scientist knew it did.

Three studies versus how many? Pick and choose much? The 1st was BF'd until 4.5 yrs old (gasp!) and our second is only 5 months and BF'ing along just fine.

I as the father of them have never had a problem with this idea and love it and see positive results. The world average is something like 6 or 7 yrs old (La Leche League folks correct me on this one if I'm wrong)? If I'm offended by seeing something (can't think of anything right now) - I would just look away.

But you missed the study of common sense. Breastfeeding is a means of feeding a child. Sure, there are many mothers such as yourself who choose to formula feed, but do you want the state to dictate how parents feed their child?

Should there be a standard? We can argue about studies all night but the fact is babies need milk to survive. Mothers produce milk in their breasts and the nipple is a mechanism that allows the child to suckle.

Now whether the nutrients come from formula or the mother's breast, should be up to the mother. The state does not know what is best for her or her child. Ok, one more for the day, then home.

I couldn't resist the "you have no right to travel with your child" comment. Actually, yes, I do. As the Supreme Court notes in Saenz v Roe, 98-97 (1999), the Constitution does not contain the word "travel" in any context, let alone an explicit right to travel (except for members of Congress, who are guaranteed the right to travel to and from Congress).

The presumed right to travel, however, is firmly established in U.S. law and precedent. In U.S. v Guest, 383 U.S. 745 (1966), the Court noted, "It is a right that has been firmly established and repeatedly recognized." In fact, in Shapiro v Thompson, 394 U.S. 618 (1969), Justice Stewart noted in a concurring opinion that "it is a right broadly assertable against private interference as well as governmental action.

We all have the right to travel. Even annoying 2-yr-olds. "StudentMom2Be, you are like the tobacco companies clinging to the one or two scientists who supported their view that tobacco doesn't cause cancer when every other scientist knew it did.

Three studies versus how many? > ... you simply don't like that your worldview is being challenged by the more modern studies. Not my fault.

BTW, it's not just those three studies ... those are just the three that came out this fall, one right after the other. Bottom line: better science will eventually show whether or not BF does have a health impact. Remember, they thought for YEARS not so many generations ago that the best cure for pneumonia was exercise and that leeches and "bleeding" were the best ways to remedy illness.

Better science eventually prevailed, and now we know better. But it's a bit crazy to dismiss three studies, from different institutes, from different countries in fact, that have challenged La Leche League lore as "having to be false!" just because it's inconvenient for you to process them. Wasn't it when the flight attendants were walking around the plane?

Don't these planes have seats for the flight attendants to use when everyone has to be belted in? Even if they're offended for purely aesthetic reasons? One argument I've seen against breastfeeding in public is the way some mothers' breasts are veiny and floppy instead of perky.

I wonder what the people who use that argument are going to do when they grow old and wrinkled, stay home all day? "In China, kids wear pants with a hole in the backside. When they need to go, they just squat by the roadside and poop and pee.

You should not be offended. That's considerably less sanitary for the rest of the people in the area than breastfeeding is. "What do I do there?

Not even at her face? "Plus, your breasts were sexual before functional. Not even if the mother and father find butts way sexier than breasts?

They didn't buy an extra seat, they bought 3 seats (and 3 seatbelts) for 3 people. Someone who didn't sign tried to quote me on this twice, despite the fact that I didn't write it. I still see no need to help your kids become independent from you.

And a blankie is a step closer to independence than nursing, as it's not another person. And I quite honestly stated above that BFing a kid who can talk freaks me out. And long before that, I totally sanctioned the idea of BFing a toddler on a plane for the sanity of everyone on the plane!

So, witnessing BFing isn't a problem for me until the kid can walk up and undress you to get to the source. That's freaking weird. If you kid is the age when you'd take away the bottle, why would he still be on the breast?

Maybe you shouldn't take away the bottle either. And how hard is it to try to wean and potty train AT THE SAME TIME? Because one isn't hard enough!

To StudentMom2Be: ..... huh? I don't see how that has anything to do with anything I said. I never said anything about wanting the state to dictate anything, just that I expect good science.

//If you kid is the age when you'd take away the bottle, why would he still be on the breast? Maybe you shouldn't take away the bottle either. Lots of kids use bottles well past two.

StudentMom2Be, I didn't dismiss the three studies, I said you're clinging to them in the face of many more studies to the contrary. You never specified how they are "better science" - is it just because you agree with them or is there a reason. And what are the citations.

Personally, I finished breastfeeding ages ago and I would have done it regardless because it was easy and convenient and free, so your assumptions about me are incorrect also. Here's good science. What about the science that breast is filled with milk, and the nipple is a way of dispensing the milk in a child's mouth.

It's common sense. So do we really need to spell it out further? Let's put aside the question of whether it's better than formula feeding a child, a mother still needs to feed her child.

So it's an option that should be accepted and left up to parents. "Remember, they thought for YEARS not so many generations ago that the best cure for pneumonia was exercise and that leeches and "bleeding" were the best ways to remedy illness. Leeches are back in the world of sanctioned medical care - who knew?

Better science prevails again! "And a blankie is a step closer to independence than nursing, as it's not another person." A blankie is a material item to become dependent on.

Nursing has made my 8 yr old much more independent than other kids his age. "And I quite honestly stated above that BFing a kid who can talk freaks me out. Sorry you cannot understand the benefits of BFing until a young human is ready to wean, but I would never suggest my wife stop because someone else is unable to deal with a healthy, normal act.

"So, witnessing BFing isn't a problem for me until the kid can walk up and undress you to get to the source. That's freaking weird. If you kid is the age when you'd take away the bottle, why would he still be on the breast?

I'm sorry but a bottle does not equate a breast in terms of comfort and mental adjustment. Also, who's standard should apply as to when a child should wean? Are all humans exactly the same and work on the same schedule?

"And how hard is it to try to wean and potty train AT THE SAME TIME? One has nothing to do with the other, so it depends on the child as to how long it will take. You are assuming the BFing is purely mechanical with no emotions involved.

Babies are not little robots they don't do ANYTHING on YOUR schedule. First I agree with NoKids -- LOTS of acts are natural but not necessarily done in public. Second, I LOVE the post from BottleFeedingMom.

My children are 17 and 18, and neither was breastfed (the first for medical reasons having to do with me, and the second by choice). I got all the grief and guilties from medical personnel and moms in the community for not nursing my baby. I don't want to relive the horror stories -- let's just say that I don't make donations to the LaLeche League.

My eldest son earned two scholarships to college, and the younger on scored 720 on his SAT math. They were almost never sick, were never fat, and are happy and well-adjusted. That doesn't mean that I think breast-feeders are wrong and that breastfeeding is a bad thing in any way.

I'm just tired of all the propaganda put out there by the nursing movement. To the poster who saw a mom breastfeeding in CHURCH and thought it was OK: no, it was not! Neither is it OK to being Cheerios, popcorn, coloring books or matchbox cars to church!

Most churches have multiple services, nurseries or, at least in many Catholic churches, 'crying rooms' where one can go with babies who are being disruptive. I realize some people think that children should be welcome everywhere with open arms, but there really are some places they just don't need to go. Is it really too much to ask to just not bring a baby to church, or the symphony, or a five-star restaurant, or an R-rated movie, other places I have seen people with nursing infants?

To the posters who say it's OK for a two-year-old to nurse: my sons were not drinking from a bottle at that age. If they needed to suck, they had thumbs (and by the way, doesn't nursing HURT once the children get teeth?). Really, weaning is OK.

The children will ALWAYS need you -- just not for breast milk. That leads me to another point. I think a lot of parents are so insecure in their parenting abilities, or perhaps feeling guilty for working/not working/being rich/being poor/insert neurosis here, that they never want to say no to anything, be it the breast/bottle, the TV, the toy, the candy, the diaper...there is this fear in our society of allowing kids to do anything at all without intimate parental involvement.

I suspect the moms who nurse for 2+ years may be the same moms who, when the kid is 7, won't allow them to play at Tiffani's because her mother goes into the other room when there are children over (and yes I know parents like this). I also suspect these parents are the same ones that want to take their children EVERYWHERE, and too bad for us if we can't hear the music from our $200 seats because the baby in the row behind us is whining. To the poster who commented about moms in Africa: it's true that the only time women are willing to compare themselves to African women is in that respect.

I don't remember if the same poster made the point about some nursing moms just showing off, but I think that person had a point. Leslie- "weird" certainly does not equal "bad" "wrong" or "unhealthy" Considering how sucky most of the "norms" are right now, I'm all for lots of weird behavior! I see no reason why nursing a baby into young childhood NECESSARILY is a bad thing at all, and see many possible benefits.

The idea that so many will simply swipe it away and suggest that it WILL make the child less indepdent and WILL cause social problems later on are just making horrendous over-generalizationsjust like those who suggest if you use formula your baby WILL be less healthy and WILL be less connected to the mother. If children should be welcome anywhere, it is in a place of worship. You know, the places were they are supposed to teach tolerance, compassion, acceptance.

What a farce! Just one of the many, many incorrect assumptions you make about nursing moms, Teachermom. Nursing does NOT hurt once the child has teeth because the teeth do not come in contact with the breast when the child is latched on correctly - you will only feel the teeth if the child is not latched on correctly, at which point you simply break the latch and start over.

The rest of your post I will leave to someone with more energy. No breastfeeding in church?!? Somebody better do something about all those statues and paintings of Mary nursing Jesus then.

She's setting a bad example. Oh the horror! To anon: lol @ me "clinging" to them.

They are brand new studies that discredit several of their older predecessors. I hardly call that "clinging," simply "citing." So why are they better?

#1, they control for more variables than their older predecessors. #2 they answer questions (specifically addressing causality) that their older predecessors do not. More studies will be done in the future I'm sure, and we can see where the chips fall then.

But it truly seems to me that you don't wished to be confused by facts that are inconvenient to your cause of promoting BF no matter how chump some of the science is behind it. All I want is for good studies to replace the old, lazy ones. If they reach the same conclusion that "breast is best," then great ... but at least it will be a TRUE conclusion instead of a half-baked one.

Father of 2- Ya, I'm still not getting it. I can no more understand your point of view than you can mine. I actually believe you can control your children, ie teach them to control themselves.

When mom says it's time to wean, it's time to wean. Same is true for going to bed, cleaning up your mess, etc. I'm not interested in living in a household where the child rules. And it's certainly not how I grew up.

(This is where I'm supposed to list my credentials, right?) I'm sure it makes for a very "independent" child, but not one I want to be around! If you want to live like that, that's perfectly OK with me. Breastfeed them until they're 14, but I'll never think it's normal and it will always give me the willies.

I just don't need whatever it is that you get out of it. Lord help your kid(s) if you think that science will answer everything for them. They will question you in ways you won't be able to answer.

I'm a Computer Scientist and non-religious person by the way. I don't pretend with my children for an instant that science can answer it all. Sometimes it just "feels right."

How do you study that?!? Granted I'm male, so I can't claim I understand what BF'ing feels like. I do, however, know when my intuition tells me something is right or wrong for me.

I follow it. If some scientist tells me that I'm wrong for following it, so be it, but it doesn't prove anything to do the study. There are studies and counter-studies for everything.

I don't need studies to prove BF'ing as being a great benefit for the child. But it doesn't mean that I believe that women who do not BF are wrong. It's their body, their choice and I've no right to judge them.

I just know what I believe in and I'm secure in that belief. It is glaringly obvious that Amanda is not a parent. StudentMom2Be thanks for actually providing some information about the studies instead of just proclaiming them better.

Still no citations though. And no, I'm not worried about being "confused" - I already said I did what was best for my kids back when "science" said formula was better. Amanda, far as I can see you have no credentials and no support for any of your positions, so why do you need to attack Father of 2 and assume his kids are uncontrolled just because they are still nursing?

We get that you're squeamish, maybe you'll get over that when you have kids. Until then, maybe you should lay off your assumptions about everyone else's kids. "Father of 2- Ya, I'm still not getting it.

I can no more understand your point of view than you can mine. I actually believe you can control your children, ie teach them to control themselves. I think the problem we're both having here is the words being used.

Control implies to me that the child has no right whatsoever. I'm saying "within bounds" - and I get to decide those bounds - the child gets what is needed. Children know what they need.

The difference here is a need vs want. We give them some of what they want and all of what they need (BF'ing in this instance). "When mom says it's time to wean, it's time to wean.

If only children were that simple. Sure you can coerce a child to do whatever you want and they'll spend most of their adult life talking to a professional about a suppressed/oppressed childhood. That's not to say any amount of discipline or boundaries are considered suppressing either.

"I'm sure it makes for a very "independent" child, but not one I want to be around! Interestingly you would think this was the case, but it is quite the opposite - in my experience. My child, though he has his moments, is entirely "behaved - according to society" when he is around other folks.

He shares with other kids and is compassionate. That's they type of human I want to be around and values I'd like him to have. Independent children need less attention in general.

"If you want to live like that, that's perfectly OK with me. Breastfeed them until they're 14, but I'll never think it's normal and it will always give me the willies. I just don't need whatever it is that you get out of it."

I guess you're right, we'll never quite see eye-to-eye on this one. To me it is like getting the willies watching a 8 yr old holding his dad's hand for no reason. It makes no sense to be afraid of such a natural act.

That's my opinion anyway. StudentMom2B- If you're going into science, you'll be great. I couldn't agree with you more.

I HATE HATE HATE hearing crappy science from crappy journals used to justify whatever agenda people want to justify. The truth is, as far as BFing, we are all doing what our gut tells us and/or acting on our opinions. And that's fine, as long as we don't hide behind questionable science.

Do I think breastmilk is better than formula? You'll like this: because it's nature's way of feeding a baby. Should you nurse them until they're 6?

It's creepy and can't possible be good for them psychologically. Were I feeling particularly smarmy, I'd go hit up PubMed to pick the papers that support my views and pretend like the contradicting papers didn't exist. It's creepy and can't possible be good for them psychologically.

Yes, Amanda, with statements like that, we can tell you love science. What are you basing your argument on again, other than your "creepy" feelings? She was not asked to cover up for the passengers, the air hostess said it was offending HER.

I think everyone is missing the point. The mother wasnt doing anything wrong, abusive or threatening to the aircraft, she wasnt intoxicated....she was nursing her child and sitting next to her HUSBAND...NO ONE ELSE! A 2yr old would have been covering up ALL modesty, and from experience would NOT want to be stuffed under a blanket.

The point is, that people are quite happy to see clevages on TV adverts or TV programmes or on 15yr olds at the mall, but attatch a baby to that cleavage and suddenly it's offensive. "to Cover up! I'm a bit baffled at the statement that "no one says you have a right to fly with your child".

Actually, I do have a right to purchase airline seats, and fly along with, any one I choose, with the obvious exclusion of persons who are terrorists. And the airline has a right to refuse you travel for conditions they can set, such as BF'ing in public after refusing a warning to cover up. You'd be repulsed by an act such as defecation in view of the public on a plane, and would demand the airline remove the offender, right?

But it's a natural act, right? Yeah, Amanda, go on, dig in deeper! No, actually they don't have the right to do that.

In case you missed it in the numerous posts today, breastfeeding is protected BY LAW in most states. (And fyi, public defecation is not and never will be similar to breastfeeding. Which is exactly what StudentMom2Be could have been doing based on her first post, which simply referenced a "trifecta of studies" with _no citations_, and no reasonable explanation of why they were "better" than all the existing studies.

She still hasn't provided citations and has only given a few indications of why she thinks they're better. And _no_ I'm not a LLL nazi, which all of you seem to assume anyone who questions _your_ point of view or asks for more information is. Teachermom, it sounds like you received a lot of undeserved criticism.

However, that undeserved criticism doesn't alter the basic science and evolutionary health logic of prolonged breastfeeding, all of which point to its value. Nobody claims that smart kids won't be smart, or that healthy kids will be sick, if they are not breastfed. The studies insteade suggest that the differences are small... but real.

Developmental outcomes are determined by so many convergent environmental and nutritional forces. But what seems undeniable is that breastmilk/breastfeeding is one of those important supporters of infant health and long term development. And yes, it is connected to a larger agenda of nurturance that extends beyond what kind of mothers we (or our spouses) are able to be, to what kind of society we want to be in relationship to children.

As for your hypothesis that breastfeeding is about "permissive parenting", I don't think you could possibly be more wrong. Personally, I tend to choose to avoid religious services, movies, and .... well any place my children aren't welcome. It's part of my small effort to do what some people call attachment parenting.

Breastfeeding and a breastfeeding supportive culture is about meeting needs and supporting healthy development. How can I even express this in a blog? Of course there is a need for limits as a child gets older.... even in the child's breastfeeding.... but the way you express the issue seems so sad to me.

You seem wounded and angry all at once. Somehow in this strange discussion, women who are nurturing children get portrayed as "aggressive", breasts become "bazzookas" (above), children become "annoyances" thrust upon others..... It's very strange. It's as if in the Delta airlines world, virtue itself is an affront.

In my psycho geography, nurturing children is practically the highest value. The world just needs to arrange itself around that reality, or get out of the way. We're talking about the holy of holies here in a societal sense... mundane, and yet a perfect litmus test for our attitudes toward the future.

I don't know. It's just hard to imagine how the most basic kind of nurturance activity could be a threat or anger people. I take it as a measure of the sickness of our civillization, a reflection of the collapse of basic human values.

Some people have been very wounded and perhaps they carry their pain with them and are hurt again when they see the most healing/nurturing physical relationships enacted before them? I don't know. Just another crazy hypothesis.

Holding up a Sports Illustrated or Maxim to cover up mom would have been soooooooooooo ironic ;) I'm gonna have to carry one around with me just incase, although here in the UK it doesn't SEEM to be such an issue as when I Nursed in Public in the USA. Good God anon are you that lazy lol? It's called "Google" ... say it with me now!

Amazing how loads of the insulting posts are from MEN. Is it cause they are intimidated cause they CAN NOT sustain human life? They think they can run the world but they cant nurture a child like a woman can...one word JELOUSY!

Father of 2- I have no doubt you're a good, involved dad. And if BFing is as as natural to you/your family as a dad holding his kid's hand, THAT I can understand. And I don't want to control my as yet unborn fetus, but you bet your butt I'm praying that the baby whisperer can get this kid on a schedule.

I'm all for controlling everything I possibly can without breaking the kid or me. To whoever: My squeamishness is not unusual, I'm just much more vocal and honest about it. Most American's see BFing as something you do with an infant, not a 6 year old.

I'm in the majority there. I was making a joke, but my credentials are all biology no psychology. I have a Ph.D.

In cell biology. As far as my question being answered, I don't think I really had one. I was reacting to what I thought was him being snooty.

He seems less snooty now. Though I understand being defensive when someone thinks something you're doing is gross/weird/not what they would do. Oregon guy: You hit the nail on the head.

It is partially societal, i.e. Folks don't really get attachment parenting and all of the values that go with it. If they did, maybe they could find a way to heal themselves.

Just a thought. "And I don't want to control my as yet unborn fetus, but you bet your butt I'm praying that the baby whisperer can get this kid on a schedule. Oh gosh...you have a hard reality check to come!

I was once in your shoes...it hit me hard, when baby comes *MY* rules and *MY* life went out the window....I can only sit back and chuckle at such *confident* mothers to be nowadays. Gosh you will make your life so much harder than it needs to be....enjoy your baby, snuggle with your baby, he/she will be grown and leaving home before you know it. "Father of 2- I have no doubt you're a good, involved dad.

And if BFing is as as natural to you/your family as a dad holding his kid's hand, THAT I can understand. And I don't want to control my as yet unborn fetus, but you bet your butt I'm praying that the baby whisperer can get this kid on a schedule. I'm all for controlling everything I possibly can without breaking the kid or me."

If you get that one figured out, please let the rest of us know how you did it! :) Kids are wonderful, but predictable is not an adjective I'd use for them. I think it is a US hangup.

Breastfeeding in Europe (not UK) rarely got me a second glance, and if so, it was from some little granny telling me how beautiful it was to see a mother and baby so contented. Nobody seemed to think it was unusual in the slightest. Flash back to the good old USA, and all of the sudden it's creepy, akin to defecation, and I shouldn't be flying with a baby anyway.

I hope my DH gets transferred again. I can't take the weirdness. Grow up, folks!

Father of 2 - Isn't it sooooo funny to see people think child bearing is like training a dog? BTW am I married to you? My brothers stopped complaining when they learned that I could defend myself by squirting milk at them.

Who was it that was looking for an offensive breast-feeding story? Oh...my...gosh...That's the whole point. It's all freaking opinion.

Some people are going to be creeped out, based on whatever. I don't share dairy products because it creeps me out. I'm really bothered by those skit shows where the comedian does something that makes other people really uncomfortable, like Borat.

Meanwhile, I have no problem hanging out with my friend while she's pumps breastmilk or BFs her sick cranky 18mo. I watch plastic surgery shows with glee. None of that makes me any better or worse than anyone else.

It just is. And if you do a pubmed search on breast feeding, you get over 20,000 articles. I can't tell you what's in all of them.

Seriously, pick a week and you'll find so many conflicting reports you won't know what to believe. Except of course, you already know what you believe. Nursing Mom: Fortunately not all of us guys are insulting.

:) Just ignore 'em, maybe they'll go away. Nursing mom of 4: Yep, I almost have my son trained to fetch, but he loses interest half way on the way back. :) Thanks and no you can't be married to me as I have only 2 children.

4 and I'd have no hair left. To the Student Mom who is anti-breastfeeding: have you considered that there are emotional benefits to breastfeeding for both mother and baby? I'm not trying to force or guillt anyone into BF if they don't want to, but you should know it's not just about nutrition.

It's an incredible connection that I never felt with the bottle (and I did both). I'm just putting the thought out there for you. To nice anon (as opposed to the grumpy anon): thanks for the thought, but BF really will not work for me.

Yes I've done both bottle and breast feeding. And there is a HUGE difference in bond. I am with Amanda.

It makes me squeamish to see older kids nursing. My kids were born in 1988 and 1992 and at that time, there was a recommendation to breast feed "for at least 6-12 weeks" (according to my memory - I haven't actually researched past recommendations). My approach was that I would try, and if it didn't work out, I would stop.

I knew that I would wean before returning to work because I had absolutely NO interest in pumping. I nursed for 10 weeks and 7 weeks respectively. The youngest has been the healthiest of the two even with less nursing.

While on maternity leave, I tried to run errands mostly by myself evenings and weekends so my husband could have time alone with the babies. He was unsure of himself and I thought that he would gain more confidence handling the babies if I weren't around. The first time I was at the grocery store and started leaking, I decided I had enough of the nursing.

Once I started to FF, I was actually less tired, even though it was supposedly more work. I used ready-to-pour formula, so there was no mixing involved. I used bottle liners, so cleanup was easier.

My husband was able to make a bottle and feed the babies as easily as I. As another poster mentioned, sharing the middle of the night feedings allowed us both to get better sleep. Also, the babies themselves slept better once they were on formula.

As far as proper nutrition for the children, I won't argue which is better because I am not an expert. As parents we have choices as to what to feed our children for many years, and there will always be something we give them that someone else doesn't think we should. Many people here have said in the past how taking care of children is bone-crushing exhausting.

I never found that to be true. Maybe because I gave up nursing and didn't have as much time tied up in feeding the children as many of the BFers. Formula filled them up and they didn't eat as frequently.

Dad or anyone else who was around at the time, including older siblings, could feed the baby while I was doing other things. I look back on maternity leave as the time when I was tired a little more than usual. But, I was happy to be with the children, to hold them and rock them, to put them down to cook dinner or fold clothes without having to hold the baby for nursing with one hand.

To be able to leave the house without them and not be worried about being back before they got hungry or I leaked. I think that I was happier and a better mother for putting them on formula than I would have been if I continued to nurse. If that sounds strange to some, think of the working moms who said that they are better mothers for continuing to work and have a sense of self.

I admire the moms who try so hard to nurse if that is what they really believe in. But I just wonder how damaging the stress may be to the babies when the mother is having difficulty and people pressure her to keep trying. I said I was -praying- the baby whisperer would work, as it has for a couple friends of mine, but that's hardly confident.

But don't think I won't try anything, and don't think whatever it is that you're doing that works isn't in a book somewhere. And guess what...it's all training. Call it "teaching,"use whatever term you like, but all parents train.

Yes, just like dogs, with punishments and rewards, but totally different. They won't let you put a shock collar on a toddler. Balancing work and family - just a thought.

How much does breast-feeding affect a wmoman's career? It seems that it can create more work-related hassle than formula feeding. It is harder to travel without pumping, freezing milk, etc. It can be awkward finding pumping places at work.

It can be more physically tiring than formula feeding to the mother. I think it would be much more revitalizing to take a walk at lunchtime rather than spend the time pumping. It would also eliminate having to work later to make up for the time lost while pumping (which is required in some workplaces).

This would allow more time with the family. The more I read this blog, the more I believe it is true that we can have it all, just not all at the same time. How could the world AVERAGE age of breastfeeding be 7 years old?

There are 14 year olds breastfeeding? I mean really, a lot of women in this country stop after a couple weeks, most at a year. Even in third world countries kids aren't breatfeeding till 10.

Sounds bogus to me. Don't you think we are getting off the point? A woman was legally nursing her child on a plane and was told to leave...this is WRONG.

She wasnt threatening to bomb the plane, she wasnt abusive, she was feeding her child. The Flight attendant had a problem with that...a personal problem...that should not have affected this woman's travel plans...POINT BLANK! Cmac- This may or may not be correct, but I keep seeing 4.2 years for child-led weaning.

How that averages out when you factor in parent-led weaning I can't say, but it certainly suggests that the average is below 4.2 years. Well, a two-year-old's idea of this is to fall down in the center aisle and have a full blown tantrum, complete with ear-splitting shrieks whose duration and pitch would rival world famous opera singers'. That's why when someone behaves badly you say, "quit behaving like a two year old".

I think we should all DEFINITELY subject our fellow travelers to this. I appreciate your kind response, but I would like to address something. I'm not so much wounded as, well, irritated.

I DID receive a good deal of criticism for not nursing. I think, in fact, that society is more accepting of the parents who choose the bottle than it was almost 20 years ago, and I suppose I do bristle when the topic comes up. Like most posters, I think there is room for compromise.

Nurse in public if you need to, and be discreet (you don't have to throw a blanket over your head to be discreet -- I think many other posters have addressed the issue adequately), and those of us not nursing will not stare, criticize or attempt to make you feel uncomfortable -- those, like me, who don't really care all that much what you do AND those who are put off by nursing. By the way, I think the flight attendant (from the story that started this series of posts) was WAY off base. I didn't really intend to equate breastfeeding with permissive parenting; I think prolonged nursing sometimes leads to, or may be symptomatic of, some overprotectiveness and a little too much attachment.

I think late weaning, breast or bottle, is also sometimes a symptom of permissiveness (not a cause). I know some people believe in attachment parenting. I don't necessarily think attachment parenting is the best method of parenting, although I feel "to each his own" if no harm is done.

I don't know of any studies or anecdotal evidence that suggest harm with this approach, and I don't anticipate any, based on what I know of the philosophy. I do know, based on observation, that students in general have become more passive and reliant on adult guidance in the past ten or so years. I'm not sure why that is, and I'm sure there are hundreds of factors (which I don't want to address now).

I also know that educators are seeing a phenomenon we refer to as helicopter parenting (it was first mentioned in a Newsweek article a while back), which we define as parents swooping in to micromanage their child's social, educational and extracurricular experiences, and it seems to be having a detrimental effect on student independence. I do have a concern that attachment parenting evolves into helicopter parenting, which evolves into...well, I don't know. Just remember that the goal of raising a child is to have an independent adult in 18 or so years (as a friend's mother said, if you are a really good parent, they leave).

Oh, to all of you who don't like my statements about nursing in church: I teach in a Catholic school. I taught in two others. I have attended church at I don't know how many churches.

And I have NEVER, EVER seen a statue, painting, sculpture, carving or other image in which Mary is, as someone crassly put it in a different context, "whipping out her boob" for the Messiah. IF she's nursing (and I haven't seen anything in church art at any church I've attended where I can tell she is -- although I haven't looked too closely) instead of cuddling, it's discreet! I don't think children should come to a church service if they cannot be quiet and calm.

PLEASE don't quote the Gospel to me (I know which one you are thinking). I would hope Jesus isn't going to be offended if you sit in the crying room with your family, or leave your child at the nursery, or attend the kid-friendly service, or walk OUTSIDE if your child starts misbehaving. You know, if you think of OTHER parisioners first.

Once children start parish school, Catholic school teachers expend a lot of energy getting the children to be quiet, respectful and reverent, and it would be easier to do if the child wasn't accustomed to eating goldfish & coloring during mass. It's not nursing in church per se that bothers me. I see the toys/food/nursing, arriving late/leaving early, talking/drawing/text messaging/playing gameboy in church as more breaches of the boundary of consideration, and of the casualization of worship.

I'm also not too impressed with people who can't be bothered to change out of their jeans before Mass, and I'm not talking about the people who don't have anything else to wear -- I'm talking about the folks I know, who I see all dressed up out to dinner on Saturday and who go to Mass looking like they just parked the lawn mower outside. Show some respect! And, no, I didn't ever bring toys or food to church for my children.

When they had trouble behaving, their dad or I walked outside with them. One of us even took them out if they needed a bottle. The 'does it hurt' comment -- I was seriously wondering, because it seems logical (which is why I suppose it is a common misconception).

Hi there Bottlefed Breastfeeder. Re this comment -- "It's one thing to be supportive of a decision, and quite another thing for a medical professional to not encourage a new mother to breastfeed. I find it hard to believe that 4 doctors separately decided to not try to educate you on the benefits of breastfeeding; it sounds like you heard what you want to hear.

I'm glad you are happy to judge what I wrotey (sarcasm intended). It's funny because while in my regret period, I thought about all the interviews I did with my doctors and realized that subconsiously I was asking for one of them to say to me, "You know. Just give it a try."

But none of them said it. They all told me to do what was best for our family - that is what is best - none of them preached the Breast is Best mantra and one told me that a ped in her practice FF her baby. These are good doctors - some written up in Washingtonian Best, and all well-established.

I hate this fight so much and your comments just fuel it on more and more. "BEST" is what you do best -- a happy, healthy Mommy is the first step to what is best. One of my friends used the "Breast is Best" line with me when both of our babies were infants.

I believe her comment was something along the lines of "Even though I understand where you're coming from, I still think that breats is best." Needless to say, I think our friendship isn't best. Why all the judging?!

Nurture your baby, nurture youself. Educate your baby, educate yourself. And get over yourself.

I'm happy with my decision and confident that I am doing the best I can with my daughter. She is not lacking for love, comfort and nutrition. And I'm in teh best place emotionally I have been in my adult life.

Thanks for your comments on my commetns, but seriously.. judging me, and my doctors now? You embody exactly what is wrong with religion - be respectful of me but I don't have to be respectful of you (or your efforts to raise thoughtful children). I hope the children you taught did not follow your example.

"So why are they better? #1, they control for more variables than their older predecessors. #2 they answer questions (specifically addressing causality) that their older predecessors do not.

Well, that's really the problem, isn't it? First some studies say formula is better, then other studies say BF is better, then yet other studies say it doesn't matter. What will future studies say, and if we don't know now, then do we care?

I even know one of the studies you're thinking of: it found that there was no IQ difference once you controlled for parent IQ by comparing the IQ of BF vs FF siblings. But that's just one marker tested. What about obesity, vision, cancer, etc? And even if they found that BF was irrelevant for all those things, maybe they would do a better study later that found it was really important.

The bottom line is, that research is of limited utility when making real-world decisions, because no matter how much research we do we will never be omniscient. Evolution designed breastfeeding and that's good enough for me! In any case, how is this relevant to the case of whether a baby should be allowed to bf in public?

It's not, except as the argument that, well, you CHOSE to breastfeed instead of using formula, therefore you should be confined to your home like a woman in Taliban Afghanistan, rather than subject us normal formula-feeding people to the sight of 1/100 of your breast! I take issue with those who keep comparing breastfeeding with defecating, masturbating, and intercourse. The most appropriate and just parallel is to an adult eating lunch.