Lone Controller sleeps at work. Solution? - Two people on the shift. Result?

Lone Controller sleeps at work. Solution? - Two people on the shift.

Result? Both of them now are able to take alternate naps! Only in America..... Asked by gandg22 8 months ago Similar questions: Lone Controller sleeps work Solution people shift Result Transportation.

Similar questions: Lone Controller sleeps work Solution people shift Result.

You are not providing all the info. There were five or six of these "reported" incidents just recently and in an earlier question you complained that it was impossible for an ATC to fall asleep on duty. Plus if there were six reported, there have had to have been a lot more unreported.

Secondly, these people were doing 8 hrs on 8hrs off and then back to 8 hrs on. They didn't have a life, let alone enough sleep. A Medivac plane was forced to land of it's own accord because there was no response from the tower after repeatedly requests for landing assistance.

That's just one instance. The FAA and the union is working together to provide a plan that will undoubtedly prevent ultimate loss of life. The airlines were, as usual, just trying to milk as much out of a human being as they could.

OK - I'll add some more. I actually worked in a tower for a lot of years. Both as a Controller and as a Manager.

Many times I worked the overnight shift, by myself. During those days, we had approximately 5 arrivals between 1 AM and 6 AM - There was absolutely no need for a second person. Most of the responsibility of the midnight shift - was to complete paper-work, finish any leftover from the afternoon shift, and prep for the day shift.(If the afternoon shift was busy - storms, or other incidents, overtime would be held until we got back to "normal", then I'd be on my own, and do my job.(WITHOUT FALLING ASLEEP).

I never said it was impossible to sleep. I don't know where you got that. But if you sleep on the job, you should be fired.

PLAIN AND EASY. As for the 8 on and 8 off shifts. First, I can't comment on their shifts without seeing them, but I do know:They probably work 4 days on - 3 days off.

We used to work 10 hr days - AT OUR REQUEST, so we could get 3 days off - It was a great work week. In every work area I Supervised, where I could, I gave employees a choice, and they overwhelmingly voted for 10 hr days - 4 on / 3 off. No need to feel sorry for them.

The only "short shifts" (8 hrs in between) I knew about was either at the request of the employee - either to change shifts with someone else, or if they bid for a different shift (every 3 months) and it resulted in a "quick turn" - During emergencies, snow storms, etc. If a quick turn was required, THEY GOT PAID OVERTIME FOR THE ENTIRE SECOND SHIFT. Again, no need to feel sorry for anyone. This is not about airlines (Airlines don't run the FAA) This is about an embarrassment for the FAA, and the Controllers Union, caused by irresponsible employees.

And a knee-jerk reaction - to show the public "WE'RE TAKING CARE OF IT". No more, no less. The FAA and Union are working on nothing more than saving face.

Sorry, but before you believe all the hype, believe someone who's been there. Gandg22 8 months ago .

You were there. But I have a feeling it was a long time ago and things have changed but you can't grasp that. People are falling asleep on the job.

This has to be addressed.

Wasn't that long ago. AND"People are falling asleep on the job. This has to be addressed".

CORRECTLearn to address employee problems. You have a responsible job. You know you should be alert during your shift.

You go to sleep. You have no excuse. You get fired.

There are plenty of others who would love your job. Gandg22 8 months ago .

People alone do nod off, especially if they are on 8 hr on/off shifts even for a period of time. They don't mean to nod off; they aren't being lazy. Having another person present to make sure incoming flights are covered is common sense.

Responsible people, with responsible jobs, who know they're not supposed to fall asleep. STAY AWAKE! Gandg22 8 months ago .

Well there you go. You came up with the ultimate solution. Why is the world so blind.

Not blind just (my opinion) very gullible if enough people throw BS their way. Gandg22 8 months ago .

PamPerdue3 of 3 people found this helpfulIt's unusual to have a person with a job in which lives depend on their attention to go straight for 8 hours. A lifeguard doesn't work an 8 hour shift; they're usually swapped out every 20 minutes. Truck drivers are limited in most countries to 5 hours or so continuously.

I'm horrified to think that they'd leave thousands of lives simultaneously in the hands of somebody having to pay continuous attention for 8 straight hours. "@Garyforbooks: "Several countries — including France, Germany, Canada and Australia — also permit napping by controllers during breaks in their work shifts, said Peter Gimbrere, who heads the controllers association's fatigue mitigation effort. Germany even provides controllers sleep rooms with cots..."______________________________________________________________________________________________You're wasted talent.

Get back out there and educate these people.

It's mind-boggling to me that to expect a well-paid individual, with a responsible job to stay awake and do their job for an eight hour shift -- is just a little too much to ask in this day and age. I guess it's just me. Gandg22 8 months ago .

It's the nature of the job; the hours and human behavior. It undoubtedly happened during the years you were employed but IMHO you probable have selective amnesia when it comes to the past and it's exacerbated by the current anti-union media hype.

Sorry - Not true. It's NOT the nature of the job. (The nature of the job is to be responsible and actually do what you're being paid to do.)This was a fun discussion - but if we disagree - fine.

Just don't let the people who talk the loudest fool you into thinking they're giving you honest information. Without all the information on these five employees. What their ACTUAL work week hours are.

Do they work second jobs? Etc... We can only speculate. I just wanted to add my two cents that I didn't think it was a LIVES AT RISK moment, nor did I think the moment was caused by anything but unprofessional employees.

Gandg22 8 months ago .

The Air Marshalls I've seen are always chatting it up with somebody, usually the flight attendants. They aren't isolated and alone -- they are always onso I don't see that as a relevant analogy. I do think they should get an appropriate amount of sleep considering the importance of the job.

Actually, however, on a rating of 1 to 10 I'd put air traffic controllers at a full 10. Terrorist attacks aren't common occurrences; pilots desperately need to know the air is clear for landing and flight lanes.

It's unusual to have a person with a job in which lives depend on their attention to go straight for 8 hours. A lifeguard doesn't work an 8 hour shift; they're usually swapped out every 20 minutes. Truck drivers are limited in most countries to 5 hours or so continuously.

I'm horrified to think that they'd leave thousands of lives simultaneously in the hands of somebody having to pay continuous attention for 8 straight hours.

Please see my response to Max20 above. And obviously, you only have one controller, when scheduled operations apply. Usually in small operational areas.

Gandg22 8 months ago .

You've got experience, and I don't. But I think it's absolutely insane to have lives depending on a human being all by him or herself. The fact that there's only 5 landings during an 8 hour shift just makes it more dangerous: nothing nothing nothing LIFE ENDANGERING CRISIS nothing nothing nothing.

Most of the time, all goes well, and I'm glad for it. But you lose just one planeful of passengers, and people start to get cranky. Cheaping out on safety is dumb.

You're not "cheaping out on safety" - It isn't/wasn't nothing nothing etc.. Every time an aircraft lands or takes off - I guess you could call it a LIFE ENDANGERING CRISIS - As much as you could call it a LIFE ENDANGERING CRISIS every time a car pulls on to the Every time a train pulls into and out of a station (with one person at the helm) you could also call that a LIFE ENDANGERING CRISIS. SAFETY is obviously THE MOST important aspect of transportation. It is also the easiest way to rile up the public - Any event that can be related back to lax public safety gets a reaction.

The politicians and Unions know it. We've had, and continue to have the safest airways and airports in the world. Give us these 4 or 5 irresponsible controllers - and enough wild reaction about SAFETY, and rather than firing them, they'll be hailed as hero's for bringing up "the safety aspect" of working shift work or working alone.

Sorry, still not buying it. I fly lots of miles every year - and have been for many years -- If the operational needs call for one operator in the tower. I'm fine with that.

If that person falls asleep, or there's some other type of emergency at the field, there are other SAFE procedures in place for me to land SAFELY. I'll land SAFELY, and it should be someone else's responsibility to get rid of the controller who fell asleep.(And I'm sure the majority of commercial pilots agree with me. ) gandg22 8 months ago .

BTW - I had enough work to keep me busy (aside from aircraft communication). I still would like to know if those employees had second jobs. From what I heard, all but 1 did.

Bet you'll never hear that from their union. Gandg22 8 months ago .

I guess you could call it a LIFE ENDANGERING CRISISIf there isn't a functioning controller there, then it is a life endangering crisis. Falling asleep when they're bored is one of the things humans do. So is skirting the rules, which is how you end up with nuclear accidents like Chernobyl and Japan.

You design the rules to take that into account. I don't know the circumstances, so I'm not fit to design those rules. Adding a second controller so that people can take naps mid-shift sounds like a very good one to me; it radically reduces the odds of there being zero controllers awake.

Maybe that's not a good plan. But "I'm too macho to fall asleep on the job" is, I absolutely guarantee, a worse plan.

Guess we can disagree. In all five incidents - the aircraft all landed without incident. There are procedures in place for a no-contact landing.

But, in any case, we'll also disagree on the "Macho" aspect. I don't believe staying awake during your working hours is anything more than being responsible, nothing to do with macho.(The vision of a bodyguard falling asleep while on duty comes to mind - Solution? Sorry, I just don't buy the hype.) gandg22 8 months ago .

It only takes one actual crash to make people spastic. How many trillions of dollars have we spent in the wake of one successful terrorist attack? And yeah... I'd feel better with two bodyguards than one.

Lifeguards work short shifts for precisely that reason. In a lot of ways the work of a lifeguard is harder: the area they're surveying is less regulated, and the crisis more imminent (drowning happens fast). So it's just a matter of scale.

I have no idea what the right number of controllers is. I just know that it's not in the least a stupid idea to keep two on shift. Maybe it's not an optimal number, but it's definitely safer than one.It's a question of cost tradeoff.

The optimal number is probably 1.1. I'd love to give these guys 6 minute breaks every hour. The problem is that labor doesn't come in units like that.

Report excerpt:In fact, the FAA and the controllers union — with assistance from NASA and the Mitre Corp. , among others — has come up with 12 recommendations for tackling sleep-inducing fatigue among controllers. Among those recommendations is that the FAA change its policies to give controllers on midnight shifts as much as two hours to sleep plus a half-hour to wake up.

That would mark a profound change from current regulations that can make sleeping controllers subject to suspension or dismissal. Yet, at most air traffic facilities, it's common for two controllers working together at night to engage in unsanctioned sleeping swaps whereby one controller works two jobs while the other controller naps and then they switch off, present and former controllers told The Associated Press. The controllers requested not to be named because they didn't want jeopardize their jobs or co-workers' jobs.

More than two decades ago, NASA scientists concluded that airline pilots were more alert and performed better during landings when they were allowed to take turns napping during the cruise phase of flights. The FAA chose to ignore recommendations that U.S. pilots be allowed "controlled napping. " But other countries, using NASA's research, have adopted such policies for their pilots.

Several countries — including France, Germany, Canada and Australia — also permit napping by controllers during breaks in their work shifts, said Peter Gimbrere, who heads the controllers association's fatigue mitigation effort. Germany even provides controllers sleep rooms with cots, he said. Com/s/ap/20110415/ap_on_re_us/us_sleeping_air_traffic_controllers.

I guess you are right "only in America" (USA) .

Good point. But everyone nods off even when rested. It is just human nature.

The reason napping during "a break" is not permitted, is that after numerous union arbitration cases involving employees caught "napping" on the job -----EVERY case that I attended - started with the Union stating that the employee was on their "break". Therefore - during your 8 hours - you're not permitted to sleep. And you excuse that you were on your "break" is invalid.

Same applied with stealing - You can't steal company property. If you steal a bag of paper clips, or the wing of an aircraft - Same thing. Stealing is stealing.

You know all these things when you take the job. Gandg22 8 months ago .

With all respect that is like the film "Billy Bud. " Logical, but totally mad. Com/Billy-Budd-Robert-Ryan/dp/B000KJU182/ref=sr_1_1?

S=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1303157839&sr=1-1.

The FAA just changed it from 8 hours to 9 hours between shifts LMAO! Like thats gonna help. Figuring in commute time, cooking and eating, doing any household chores,errands, they are getting what?

Maybe 6 hours sleep between shifts? That is BS! .

Try telling that to some working Moms! Gandg22 8 months ago .

Moms are super human, they can do anything, things normal people can only dream of. If moms were paid by the hour they'd be getting at the very least, triple time.

Or maybe just have someone there to monitor things when the person need a few minutes of downtime,and can get the Controllers attention if something needs his/her attention. Have you ever worked swing shifts? They suck big time and it's really hard to get a good sleep schedule while doing swing shifts,so a 15 minute nap when things are quite is a GREAT idea for these guys to stay alert on the job,when so many people depend on them,just they could have a lesser person monitoring the radios at such time so these things don't happen.

I worked swing shifts for 37 years. Prior to that, I worked 5 years in the military, 2 of which was 12 on / 12 off. So I believe I know a little about shift work.

When you take the job, you realize that you'll be working shift work, holidays, and just about every family "important" day. You weigh the pros and cons, and if you take the job, you should be responsible. I honestly don't believe I ever slept on the job.

We can argue about how much I might have missed by my screwed up schedule, but the benefits (in my mind) out weighed the negatives - which is why I did what I did. I don't want to come across as uncaring - But some people can be cut out for a particular job, some can't. If you're a surgeon, your hands shouldn't shake.

If you're a controller, you should stay awake. Sorry, that's my opinion. Gandg22 8 months ago .

I have pulled swing shifts for 18 years so I to know a touch about swing shifts. Whats your view if the person didn't get a good rest the night before and he/she isn't sick,should they just quit? Or what Take a stimulant to stay awake,that would be good idea a controller on drugs,and when things get quite on a graveyard shift it would be hard to stay alert,and maybe 2 controller would be to costly,but have a lesser person monitor the radios and let he/she have a 15 minute cat nap,to stay alert.

As a trucker I would be fired if I didn't take a nap if I needed one,dispatch would much rather put up with a late load then have to go get a wrecked truck out of the ditch cause the driver dozed off. DON'T YOU AGREE? Many lives are in these peoples hands and I want them to be alert,and they put in some real screw ball hours,so as long as someone or thing monitors radios while they have a cat nap is fine with me.

Or Maybe they should be regulated by an hour log book like us truckers,they can only put in so many on duty hours then they HAVE to be off for a certain amount of time,betcha their Boss's wouldn't want that ,they would have to hire more controllers. Things are not always black and white.My opinion only. And about responsible you know as well as I do things come up in life,that get in the way of a good rest,while I may not agree with a 2 hour sleep on the job,but I am all for a cat nap when things are quite.

I would like to see a complete open file on the employees involved. What is their REAL shift? How many times were they required to work 8 off 8 on?

How many days a week do they work? Do they often change their shifts for their own benefits? How many and how long are their breaks?

Gandg22 8 months ago .

So maybe a hourly log book,is the way to go,to make sure they get the off duty time they need to stay alert on the job. For me it used to be 8 hours between shifts,that wasn't enough I was very glad when they bumped it up to 10. By the way the Government bumped it to 10.

And what do you find so bad about a cat nap on slow times,as long as radios are being monitored? Quick cat naps do wonders.

Very Simple Rules...You're not supposed to sleep on the job. You know it. How about train conductors?

Let's let them take cat naps. If you can't do the job --- Find employment elsewhere. What we're seeing is the APPROVED weakening of the American Workforce.

We've truly come a long way, baby. Gandg22 8 months ago .

And I'm not sure about passenger trains but I do know here in Canada on graveyard shifts,freight train conductors are allowed cat naps as long as they are not alone. So to stay strong what is your view of what should happen? I guess you would be hiring and firing alot of people?

And you think us truckers shouldn't take a nap either while on shift,boy I don't want to live in your world of simple rules? In your simple rules you have lost the fact your dealing with humans and not robots.

I can't talk about truckers, other than to say it's a tough job, that I wouldn't want to do, and they deserve everything they're entitled to. All I know about is the job where these guys fell asleep - You don't need anything but EMPLOYEES YOU CAN DEPEND ON (My opinion). If you didn't get rest, and can't stay awake for the shift, DON'T GO TO WORK.

If that happens often enough -- The job isn't for you. I never had to discipline a controller for sleeping. Most shifts had more than 1 employee, but on occasions that only 1 was required, that's what we SAFELY went with.

Gandg22 8 months ago .

When two people are responsible for a job nobody is responsible. There are machines to determine if someone is asleep. They should connect one to an alarmthat goes off when anyone falls asleep.

It's mind-boggling to me that to expect a well-paid individual, with a responsible job to stay awake and do their job for an eight hour shift -- is just a little too much to ask in this day and age. I guess it's just me. Gandg22 58 months ago.

I cant really gove you an answer,but what I can give you is a way to a solution, that is you have to find the anglde that you relate to or peaks your interest. A good paper is one that people get drawn into because it reaches them ln some way.As for me WW11 to me, I think of the holocaust and the effect it had on the survivors, their families and those who stood by and did nothing until it was too late.